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Choose The Right

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1 Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:15 am

"If you know people who have a same-gender attraction, follow the same principles you do in your other friendships: “Choose your friends carefully. They will greatly influence how you think and act, and even help determine the person you will become. Choose friends who share your values so you can strengthen and encourage each other in living high standards. A true friend will encourage you to be your best self. … Treat everyone with kindness and respect” (For the Strength of Youth [booklet, 2001], 12).

I would like to understand the LGBT as contrasted or confirmed by the notion of "values" or "virtue".
The following are examples of what I, and most, would consider attributes that describe something which is virtuous, or "of value" (with regards to this topic)

faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and virtue
The LDS topical guide also references:
chastity; cleanliness; goodness; holiness; modesty; purity; sacred.

So, what justifies the LGBT as being virtuous or having value? In my opinion the LGBT falls way short on meeting the above mentioned list, and though no person should be denied the love of the Gospel(treated with kindness and respect), does that necessarily mean i have to be their "friend"?

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2 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:35 am

subgenius wrote:"If you know people who have a same-gender attraction, follow the same principles you do in your other friendships: “Choose your friends carefully. They will greatly influence how you think and act, and even help determine the person you will become. Choose friends who share your values so you can strengthen and encourage each other in living high standards. A true friend will encourage you to be your best self. … Treat everyone with kindness and respect” (For the Strength of Youth [booklet, 2001], 12).

I would like to understand the LGBT as contrasted or confirmed by the notion of "values" or "virtue".
The following are examples of what I, and most, would consider attributes that describe something which is virtuous, or "of value" (with regards to this topic)

faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and virtue
The LDS topical guide also references:
chastity; cleanliness; goodness; holiness; modesty; purity; sacred.

So, what justifies the LGBT as being virtuous or having value? In my opinion the LGBT falls way short on meeting the above mentioned list, and though no person should be denied the love of the Gospel(treated with kindness and respect), does that necessarily mean i have to be their "friend"?

What is it about gay people that you find inherently unwholesome, as opposed to straight people?

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3 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:46 am

subgenius wrote:I would like to understand the LGBT as contrasted or confirmed by the notion of "values" or "virtue".
The following are examples of what I, and most, would consider attributes that describe something which is virtuous, or "of value" (with regards to this topic)

faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and virtue
The LDS topical guide also references:
chastity; cleanliness; goodness; holiness; modesty; purity; sacred.

So, what justifies the LGBT as being virtuous or having value? In my opinion the LGBT falls way short on meeting the above mentioned list, and though no person should be denied the love of the Gospel(treated with kindness and respect), does that necessarily mean i have to be their "friend"?

1. not all people value those characteristics as virtuous or valuable. That is a very closed system, and is pretty much the view of some old white men in a state far from diversity.

2. how people live their lives is not something they have to justify to you... or to me. Friendship isn't control. If you think it is, then the LDS church is a great place for you.

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4 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:04 pm

Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

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5 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:09 pm

subgenius wrote:"If you know people who have a same-gender attraction, follow the same principles you do in your other friendships: “Choose your friends carefully. They will greatly influence how you think and act, and even help determine the person you will become. Choose friends who share your values so you can strengthen and encourage each other in living high standards. A true friend will encourage you to be your best self. … Treat everyone with kindness and respect” (For the Strength of Youth [booklet, 2001], 12).

I would like to understand the LGBT as contrasted or confirmed by the notion of "values" or "virtue".
The following are examples of what I, and most, would consider attributes that describe something which is virtuous, or "of value" (with regards to this topic)

faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and virtue
The LDS topical guide also references:
chastity; cleanliness; goodness; holiness; modesty; purity; sacred.

So, what justifies the LGBT as being virtuous or having value? In my opinion the LGBT falls way short on meeting the above mentioned list, and though no person should be denied the love of the Gospel(treated with kindness and respect), does that necessarily mean i have to be their "friend"?

Friendship is something that is a mutual relationship, and involves non-conditionnal love, just like being part of a family.

I don't see any reason why you should feel obligated to choose to be friends with anyone you are uncomfortable with. That being said, I think that there are things that you could miss out on if prejudice is a block for you.

For example, I have a dear friend who I have known since the 2nd grade. He is gay. He has been in a 20 year, mongamous relationship with another man. After I was newly married, he wrote me a very heartfelt letter, explaining that he was gay. He had been afraid to tell me because he knew that I was LDS, and he was afraid that I might not want to be friends with him if I knew the truth. I called him up, and really gave him "what for". I said, "Do you really think that makes a difference to me? We have shared so much. You have always been supportive of me in my decisions, and I have always been there for you. I just want you to be happy. Now, I do want you to be careful because i don't want one of my best friends dying of AIDS."

There are so many other wonderful things about people. It is true that I would not personally choose a lifestyle where I am being intimate with another woman. But I see no reason to judge someone else if they choose to live their life that way. How does it hurt me?

Plus, Christ is the ultimate judge. Not us.

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6 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:21 pm

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

Post of the decade.

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7 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.
Holy cow! walk a mile in my shoes??
i dont have to....my brother is a gay man, has been for at least the past 20+ years. We are as close and as distant as any other brothers are. He is a close member of our family, even though many do not agree with his choices, but i also have Baptists in my family that i still love. More often than not he imposes exile upon himself, but for other reasons i suppose.
My OP is simply drawing out the counsel from the church, and from society about the relative virtue of the LGBT as a means to validate that lifestyle. On a personal level, i have no objection with the LGBT anymore than i do with BDSM. However, on a public level the argument becomes very different indeed.
So, while i do not have to "come out" to know how i would be valued is this point.
my question is why should i value someone coming out? what possible value is there in being LGBT with regards to the public forum? the friendship forum? the Gospel forum?

and by the way...your experiment above..are you claiming that "how it feels" is an acceptable indicator of truth?

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8 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:03 pm

White Buffalo wrote:=Post of the decade.
=something never to follow one of yours

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9 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:09 pm

subgenius wrote:
White Buffalo wrote:=Post of the decade.
=something never to follow one of yours

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10 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:10 pm

subgenius wrote:
Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.
Holy cow! walk a mile in my shoes??
i dont have to....my brother is a gay man, has been for at least the past 20+ years. We are as close and as distant as any other brothers are. He is a close member of our family, even though many do not agree with his choices, but i also have Baptists in my family that i still love. More often than not he imposes exile upon himself, but for other reasons i suppose.
My OP is simply drawing out the counsel from the church, and from society about the relative virtue of the LGBT as a means to validate that lifestyle. On a personal level, i have no objection with the LGBT anymore than i do with BDSM. However, on a public level the argument becomes very different indeed.
So, while i do not have to "come out" to know how i would be valued is this point.
my question is why should i value someone coming out? what possible value is there in being LGBT with regards to the public forum? the friendship forum? the Gospel forum?

and by the way...your experiment above..are you claiming that "how it feels" is an acceptable indicator of truth?

Great, then you shouldn't have any problem coming out for a month. Return and report.

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11 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:12 pm

AdminLiz wrote:
Friendship is something that is a mutual relationship, and involves non-conditionnal love, just like being part of a family.

I don't see any reason why you should feel obligated to choose to be friends with anyone you are uncomfortable with.........Plus, Christ is the ultimate judge. Not us.
nice anecdote, but it is beside the point.
if you can agree with the general notion in the OP quote about:
“Choose your friends carefully. They will greatly influence how you think and act, and even help determine the person you will become. Choose friends who share your values so you can strengthen and encourage each other in living high standards. A true friend will encourage you to be your best self. … Treat everyone with kindness and respect”[/i] (For the Strength of Youth [booklet, 2001], 12).

Then by what standard do you consider "values" or "virtue"...because surely you would not desire to be friends with anyone who contradicted or degenerated what you held in value or virtuous, correct?

The Church promotes the following with regards to that:
faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity,chastity, cleanliness, goodness, holiness, modesty, purity, and sacred.

I dont consider the LGBT in accordance with most, if not all, of these attributes...most people likely fall short of these too, but the LGBT stands in direct contradiction, if not opposition, to almost all of them.
So, again...if we are to choose that which is virtuous and/or with value...what does the LGBT have to that end?
Even a criminal has moments of kindness, moments of insight, does that merit my friendship? I can love the sinner but does that does not require me to condone, ignore, or even support the sin...does it?

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12 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:15 pm

White Buffalo wrote:Great, then you shouldn't have any problem coming out for a month. Return and report.
Rolling Eyes
i honestly do not know how you come up with your conclusions.
nevertheless, i would have a problem pretending to be something that i am not...obviously not a hurdle for you...let us know in a month.

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13 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:54 pm

subgenius wrote:
White Buffalo wrote:Great, then you shouldn't have any problem coming out for a month. Return and report.
Rolling Eyes
i honestly do not know how you come up with your conclusions.
nevertheless, i would have a problem pretending to be something that i am not...obviously not a hurdle for you...let us know in a month.

You expressed that being gay isn't difficult, and that your brother brings his own problems on himself. So again, you shouldn't have any problem coming out for a month. Return and report.

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14 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:55 pm

Subby, if you have a gay brother then you can answer your own OP at your next Family Home Evening. Invite your brother over to articulate to you and your family the virtues and values that he feels as a gay man.

Then, as Mormons, you and your family can tell him to his face how he cannot be with you for eternity because his choice to be gay is unnatural and immoral.

Let us know how it goes...

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15 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:56 pm

subgenius wrote:
The Church promotes the following with regards to that:
faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity,chastity, cleanliness, goodness, holiness, modesty, purity, and sacred.

I dont consider the LGBT in accordance with most, if not all, of these attributes...most people likely fall short of these too, but the LGBT stands in direct contradiction, if not opposition, to almost all of them.

Really? That's interesting. I had no idea that gays and lesbians, as a body, are in unison opposed to faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice, accountability, good works, integrity, chastity, cleanliness, goodness, holiness, modesty, purity or sanctity.

It is actually the LDS church that is fighting against chastity. They don't wish couples to marry, but would prefer that they live in sin, fornicating without the blessings of legal marriage.



Last edited by White Buffalo on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

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16 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:57 pm

Let's start with "the LGBT" What does that mean, sub? Do you think that there is only one Lesbian, Gay Bi-Sexual, or Transgendered person? Or that there is only one person to whom all of those adjectives apply? Or do you think all LGBT people are identical?

Would you ever say "the Mormon" (plug-in a characteristic)?

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17 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:04 pm

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

I once was placed in a difficult situation in a work-place where I was asked to identify my sexual orientation. I said "celibate and as for feelings, they are none of your business" (primarily hetero). I considered it an egregious breach of my privacy, and I don't give a f*** what others do in private. It was distracting from the issue of work, and I considered it very offensive.

Caught between heterophobes and homophobes. One celibate friend compromised with "bi." But that invites the assumption of what people actually do.

As for T-- sure, but women alone do tend to develop a certain self-protective tough attitude, and there is nothing wrong with that. Tone down the femininity of the way one dresses, and there are fewer harassing comments.

SIGH!!

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18 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:08 pm

MCB wrote:
Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

I once was placed in a difficult situation in a work-place where I was asked to identify my sexual orientation. I said "celibate and as for feelings, they are none of your business" (primarily hetero). I considered it an egregious breach of my privacy, and I don't give a f*** what others do in private. It was distracting from the issue of work, and I considered it very offensive.

Caught between heterophobes and homophobes. One celibate friend compromised with "bi." But that invites the assumption of what people actually do.

As for T-- sure, but women alone do tend to develop a certain self-protective tough attitude, and there is nothing wrong with that. Tone down the femininity of the way one dresses, and there are fewer harassing comments.

SIGH!!


In a UK workplace that question about sexual orientation is against the law and an Employer could be sued at an industrial tribune for asking it.

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19 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:11 pm

Yep. No further comment.

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20 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:24 pm

White Buffalo wrote:It is actually the LDS church that is fighting against chastity. They don't wish couples to marry, but would prefer that they live in sin, fornicating without the blessings of legal marriage.
dont you own a dictionary...or at least know how to google?

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21 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:42 pm

lululu wrote:Or do you think all LGBT people are identical?
to an extent they are, and for the purposes of my argument they are. I hesitate to use the term "sexual deviant" as it is not as comprehensive.

Would you ever say "the Mormon" (plug-in a characteristic)?
People refer to "Mormons" as a collective body all the time...and even love to use the term TBM.
And yes, i have been know to say "The Mormon is faithful".

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22 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:44 pm

Drifting1 wrote:Subby, if you have a gay brother then you can answer your own OP at your next Family Home Evening. Invite your brother over to articulate to you and your family the virtues and values that he feels as a gay man.
already had this discussion...but he is bias...wanted an unbias view.
besides he lives too far away, only see him on holidays and special occasions.

Then, as Mormons, you and your family can tell him to his face how he cannot be with you for eternity because his choice to be gay is unnatural and immoral.
it does not bother him at all...he is not a mormon

Let us know how it goes...
not that bad actually

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23 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:54 pm

subgenius wrote:
White Buffalo wrote:It is actually the LDS church that is fighting against chastity. They don't wish couples to marry, but would prefer that they live in sin, fornicating without the blessings of legal marriage.
dont you own a dictionary...or at least know how to google?

Sex outside of marriage has long been considered by the church to be fornication. Now the church has come out squarely in favor of fornication, going so far as to dissolve marriages so that fornication can resume unhindered. Apparently it is the church's wish to fight against measures to reduce fornication domestically and internationally.

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24 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:36 pm

subgenius wrote:
lululu wrote:Or do you think all LGBT people are identical?
to an extent they are, and for the purposes of my argument they are. I hesitate to use the term "sexual deviant" as it is not as comprehensive.

And you wonder why your brother "imposes exile upon himself."

--The lulu

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25 Re: Choose The Right on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:59 pm

White Buffalo wrote:Sex outside of marriage has long been considered by the church to be fornication. Now the church has come out squarely in favor of fornication, going so far as to dissolve marriages so that fornication can resume unhindered. Apparently it is the church's wish to fight against measures to reduce fornication domestically and internationally.
moronic.
and interesting to see your veiled support of beastiality.

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