Choose The Right

subgenius wrote:"If you know people who have a same-gender attraction, follow the same principles you do in your other friendships: “Choose your friends carefully. They will greatly influence how you think and act, and even help determine the person you will become. Choose friends who share your values so you can strengthen and encourage each other in living high standards. A true friend will encourage you to be your best self. … Treat everyone with kindness and respect” (For the Strength of Youth [booklet, 2001], 12).

I would like to understand the LGBT as contrasted or confirmed by the notion of "values" or "virtue".
The following are examples of what I, and most, would consider attributes that describe something which is virtuous, or "of value" (with regards to this topic)

faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and virtue
The LDS topical guide also references:
chastity; cleanliness; goodness; holiness; modesty; purity; sacred.

So, what justifies the LGBT as being virtuous or having value? In my opinion the LGBT falls way short on meeting the above mentioned list, and though no person should be denied the love of the Gospel(treated with kindness and respect), does that necessarily mean i have to be their "friend"?

subgenius wrote:I would like to understand the LGBT as contrasted or confirmed by the notion of "values" or "virtue".
The following are examples of what I, and most, would consider attributes that describe something which is virtuous, or "of value" (with regards to this topic)

faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and virtue
The LDS topical guide also references:
chastity; cleanliness; goodness; holiness; modesty; purity; sacred.

So, what justifies the LGBT as being virtuous or having value? In my opinion the LGBT falls way short on meeting the above mentioned list, and though no person should be denied the love of the Gospel(treated with kindness and respect), does that necessarily mean i have to be their "friend"?

subgenius wrote:"If you know people who have a same-gender attraction, follow the same principles you do in your other friendships: “Choose your friends carefully. They will greatly influence how you think and act, and even help determine the person you will become. Choose friends who share your values so you can strengthen and encourage each other in living high standards. A true friend will encourage you to be your best self. … Treat everyone with kindness and respect” (For the Strength of Youth [booklet, 2001], 12).

I would like to understand the LGBT as contrasted or confirmed by the notion of "values" or "virtue".
The following are examples of what I, and most, would consider attributes that describe something which is virtuous, or "of value" (with regards to this topic)

faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity, and virtue
The LDS topical guide also references:
chastity; cleanliness; goodness; holiness; modesty; purity; sacred.

So, what justifies the LGBT as being virtuous or having value? In my opinion the LGBT falls way short on meeting the above mentioned list, and though no person should be denied the love of the Gospel(treated with kindness and respect), does that necessarily mean i have to be their "friend"?

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

White Buffalo wrote:=Post of the decade.

subgenius wrote:

White Buffalo wrote:=Post of the decade.

=something never to follow one of yours

subgenius wrote:

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

Holy cow! walk a mile in my shoes??
i dont have to....my brother is a gay man, has been for at least the past 20+ years. We are as close and as distant as any other brothers are. He is a close member of our family, even though many do not agree with his choices, but i also have Baptists in my family that i still love. More often than not he imposes exile upon himself, but for other reasons i suppose.
My OP is simply drawing out the counsel from the church, and from society about the relative virtue of the LGBT as a means to validate that lifestyle. On a personal level, i have no objection with the LGBT anymore than i do with BDSM. However, on a public level the argument becomes very different indeed.
So, while i do not have to "come out" to know how i would be valued is this point.
my question is why should i value someone coming out? what possible value is there in being LGBT with regards to the public forum? the friendship forum? the Gospel forum?

and by the way...your experiment above..are you claiming that "how it feels" is an acceptable indicator of truth?

AdminLiz wrote:
Friendship is something that is a mutual relationship, and involves non-conditionnal love, just like being part of a family.

I don't see any reason why you should feel obligated to choose to be friends with anyone you are uncomfortable with.........Plus, Christ is the ultimate judge. Not us.

White Buffalo wrote:Great, then you shouldn't have any problem coming out for a month. Return and report.

subgenius wrote:

White Buffalo wrote:Great, then you shouldn't have any problem coming out for a month. Return and report.

i honestly do not know how you come up with your conclusions.
nevertheless, i would have a problem pretending to be something that i am not...obviously not a hurdle for you...let us know in a month.

subgenius wrote:
The Church promotes the following with regards to that:
faith, divine nature, individual worth, knowledge, choice and accountability, good works, integrity,chastity, cleanliness, goodness, holiness, modesty, purity, and sacred.

I dont consider the LGBT in accordance with most, if not all, of these attributes...most people likely fall short of these too, but the LGBT stands in direct contradiction, if not opposition, to almost all of them.

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

MCB wrote:

Drifting1 wrote:Here's a thought subby,

Spend some time as a gay man.

I don't mean choose to be gay because we all know that's nonsense. What I mean is, spend a month pretending to be a gay man. Let you wife in on the test but to everyone else 'come out' and see how it feels and how you get valued.

I once was placed in a difficult situation in a work-place where I was asked to identify my sexual orientation. I said "celibate and as for feelings, they are none of your business" (primarily hetero). I considered it an egregious breach of my privacy, and I don't give a f*** what others do in private. It was distracting from the issue of work, and I considered it very offensive.

Caught between heterophobes and homophobes. One celibate friend compromised with "bi." But that invites the assumption of what people actually do.

As for T-- sure, but women alone do tend to develop a certain self-protective tough attitude, and there is nothing wrong with that. Tone down the femininity of the way one dresses, and there are fewer harassing comments.

SIGH!!

White Buffalo wrote:It is actually the LDS church that is fighting against chastity. They don't wish couples to marry, but would prefer that they live in sin, fornicating without the blessings of legal marriage.

lululu wrote:Or do you think all LGBT people are identical?

Would you ever say "the Mormon" (plug-in a characteristic)?

Drifting1 wrote:Subby, if you have a gay brother then you can answer your own OP at your next Family Home Evening. Invite your brother over to articulate to you and your family the virtues and values that he feels as a gay man.

Then, as Mormons, you and your family can tell him to his face how he cannot be with you for eternity because his choice to be gay is unnatural and immoral.

Let us know how it goes...

subgenius wrote:

White Buffalo wrote:It is actually the LDS church that is fighting against chastity. They don't wish couples to marry, but would prefer that they live in sin, fornicating without the blessings of legal marriage.

dont you own a dictionary...or at least know how to google?

subgenius wrote:

lululu wrote:Or do you think all LGBT people are identical?

to an extent they are, and for the purposes of my argument they are. I hesitate to use the term "sexual deviant" as it is not as comprehensive.

White Buffalo wrote:Sex outside of marriage has long been considered by the church to be fornication. Now the church has come out squarely in favor of fornication, going so far as to dissolve marriages so that fornication can resume unhindered. Apparently it is the church's wish to fight against measures to reduce fornication domestically and internationally.